While there is some truth to that, and that is good advice to be certain, the story was primarily illustrative as the telling of a story is usually effective in conveying a particular point. The point I was driving at was that there is an abundance of evidence indicationg that fanciful notion aside, what the source of Tolkiens Elvish languages originated. The amount of information available as to composition, structure and even the words themselves all suggest that their origin as an actual "Elf" language is pretty remote. I mean heck, they even did a featurette on the languages for the Collectors Box set LOTR movies that shows how he derived much of the language used in the films and books. This is not to imply that there are no elven languages.. There are no doubt many.. Tolkiens however, isn't one of them.

Grace to you and Peace,
Ezaraudin

Unless you knew him personally there is no way you could say that for certain.
Strictly speaking you are in part correct, Tolkein's Elvish is not an Elven language, as it is said he improved upon the original language he obtained. But the fact remains that many believe that without Elvish to base his version on, there would never have been a 'Tolkein's Elvish'.
As for composition and structure, well there would be as much information recorded on them if he learned it from Elves and altered it to suit his needs, as there would be if he had made it himself. He would have written down the rules for composition, grammar, tenses and everything else in order to get it right.
The fact that he has these is no proof of provenance at all.
However no-one asked for proof only views and opinions.

This means less than nothing, media hype and a marketing/advertising ploy by the people paid to grub as much money from the opportunity afforded by these movies as possible.

You made much in your first few posts of being one to stand up for everyones right to view every subject from their own point of view and post to that effect, and yet you appear now to have fallen at the very first hurdle when your point of view is challenged.
What a shame.

This may be what you believe, however it is not what all believe. And while you have your rights they do not supercede ours. We are not young and impressionable, we are definite and certain of what we believe.
While I welcome your views, your assertions on things you cannot possibly claim as truth are no more welcome than anyone else's.

What a shame? Please, you can dispense with the snide remarks, they are not necessary. However, I feel almost silly in addressing them directly but here goes.

At no point in time did I state there was no elven language, what I did say was the Tolkien CONTRUCTED his. Was it in some part influenced by an actual elven language? Possible. Did he cite that in his linguistic notes? No.. He did cite several languages, elven was not one of them. I mentioned the featurette because it shows by using side by side comparison how Finnish and welsh were used as basis for reference and that it was of interest which the original post was about where TOLKEIN's elvish and to that alone was my at does not reply. Though your jab amuses me, and to it I will also answer..

Yes, I do stand up for the little guy. Frequently. The thing to understand is that not once do I tell someone what they can and or cannot believe. I will defend their right to believe whatever they wish, regardless of whether or not *I* believe it. Being open minded and accepting of ones believe means that you ACCEPT that it is THEIR belief. There are still folks who believe Apollo carries the Sun across the sky in his chariot. That does not make it so. But you are free to believe that he does. Why is it I wonder that simply because we are Otherkin, folks seem to think we fell off the last Turnip truck?

There are without a doubt numbers of various fae languages.. And like all languages they have a root somewhere. For example, the romance languages Spanish, Italian, French, etc.. Are all Latin based. They are not however LATIN. Even in the event that there is some actual Elven influence.. TOLKIENS language is NOT. That alone was my point. As for the shame?

Snide snippy people made moderators for a board that professes non-hostile environments.

Grace to you and Peace,
Ezaraudin

Firstly I should like to address your remark about my moderatorship.
That is not an issue here.
I did not use the fact that I was a moderator in my post, in fact it was never even mentioned. This was MY post of MY personal opinion.
Nothing to do with my status as a moderator.
I may be a moderator, but I am also a member with an opinion of my own. This post reflected ONLY my personal opinion, and my opinion should not reflect upon the board and it's policies.

I know I can be a complete and total ASS sometimes but don't blame the forum or Lady C for that. My stupidity I own all by myself!!

At no time did I say that you either said or implied that there were no Elven Languages. I quoted your post and remarked on those quotes.

I still believe that you cannot say that Tolkein constructed the language he used if he modified the Elvin language and used it, calling it his own. That is at best RE-construction, which is in no way the same as inventing the language and at worst it is plagiarism.
You say he didn't, but many say he did. I do not argue with your right to have your opinion which may be valid and even correct. You posted your opinion and I posted to show a different view.
Of course he didn't cite it in any of his notes, would you? He wants to appear at least credible, and it is hardly in anyones best interests to say he got the language from a group of Elves! He would have been laughed out of any publishers and the LOTR books may never have made it to the book shelves. Which many Elves believe would not have been such a bad thing, but then they have no real reason to feel affection for them, so such a thing is understandable I suppose.

My jab as you call it was childish and unnecessary and I should not have made it, and there is no excuse for it so I won't try to make one!
But I will apologise for it.

I did admit in my post that Tolkiens language was not an Elvish language because he had messed with it, but MY point was that you cannot say that he invented it, when there is a chance that he did not. However small you consider that chance to be, it IS possible, and as long as it is possible, there is no proof either way.
He said he invented it as a language, and you believe him. There are many however who do not agree with you.
They could come here and say 'I believe he stole it', or 'in my opinion he stole it', but they would not be allowed to come here and say HE STOLE IT, and remain unchallenged, any more than you can come here and say HE INVENTED IT and remain unchallenged.

Finally I will say to you, if you have a problem with anything I say to you, please bring it to me. Do not blame the board or the Admins for my opinion.
What this forum stands for is Lady C and her hard work and ideals, her beliefs in the freedoms of thought, belief and ideas.
I am bound when doing my job to hold to those ideals and I do. But when posting ONLY my opinion I can post that as a member just like anyone else.
A non-hostile environment does not mean that anything that is said will go unchallenged without the other side of the coin also being put out for people to see. It is impossible to make a choice whether free or not, if only one opinion is given.

Darkness.

OK who are you and what did you do with Darkness???

Will there be ransom money involved?

Exactly Kes.

Why are you apologising to him?
He is the one stating his personal opinion as though it were a fact, and complaining when challenged.
Frankly if he cannot stand up to a bit of honest criticism then an internet forum, even a friendly one, is not the best place for him.

Don't let him make you think you are bad at your job either. You're not, the things you said were not said in a official capacity, he had no right to accuse you of that at all. That appeared to be a shameless attempt to guilt you into being quiet.

I don't know whether Tolkein made up the language he used or not, and truthfully I don't care, as it makes no difference to me.
But I do appreciate that there are many people who DO care, and for them to read his posts stating that Tolkein was telling the truth, without an opposing opinion, when he really doesn't know any more than anyone else is just wrong.

Personally I would call what you did doing your job, and doing it well. You presented another view point, and insisted that everyone knew that he was only giving his thoughts on the subject, rather than actually stating the truth. What the truth of this situation actually is no-one except Tolkein and any Elves that may or may not have been involved could possibly know for sure.

Chin up.

Shade.

Bite me princess!

And for goodness sake put that fish catalogue down, there isn't room in your living room for a nine foot fishtank!!


Thanks for the support Shade. I appreciate it.

I will have you know that I am not the kind of princess who feels the need to go around her kingdom biting her public, so I won't if it's all the same to you.

And I can look can't I?
I'm only looking at the fish...
Coo. Some folk.

I don't know about 9 feet but theres an awfully big hole where the piano used to be.

There may be times when you can be a total and complete ASS but I don't think that this was one of them.
I read your reply and even with your slight trip into the dark valley of sarcasm you were still relatively polite and honest in your answer, and your points were very well made and valid, so don't beat yourself up about it too much.

I think that having heard what Elvin had to say on this subject many of us understand where your insistance comes from.
But you were not rude, a little unfortunate perhaps, and you could keep an eye out for that in future, but it really didn't read as badly as he implied.
You apologised for your post and you covered the main points again just to be sure everyone got a true picture of where you were coming from, and going to, with your words.
You do a good job, and I don't think you need to give this another thought.
Personally I think to expect any forum, no matter how friendly it says it is, to carry on functioning and never have any disagreements between it's members is unrealistic, and frankly most probably impossible. Where you get more than one opinion you get debate, and where you get debate skirmishes are never far away.
Forget it, it's over and done.

I don't think the Elvish language went anywhere. It's alive and well in many Elf members of Forums all over the internet and in everyone who wants to learn it.
Maybe not in a form that the majority believe to be a true Elvish language, but it IS still alive, and the dreams that drive us to want to learn it, understand it and speak it will keep it alive.

Good point.