After reading some on machine kin, and the misconceptions, I would like to know more about them. What characteristics might someone who is machine have?



-FireSpark

Well, I can only speak from my own experience.

The characteristics that I have of being machine-kin are mainly in my mannerisms and thought processing. I am very linear in my thinking. My thoughts are like binary code, on or off, black or white. I often can't comprehend abstract thought because to me, it seems unnecessary, and it's like my emotions are limited. I can be happy, but I do not have intimate relationships. I can be sad, but I don't get depressed for long periods of time.

My mannerisms are odd. I have a very monotone voice. I have a blank stare about my face, and I don't turn my neck, but instead move my entire personhood to look around, or just shift my eyes. I often catch myself doing K-turns in the store, or pulling over to let people pass. I stop at ends of aisles and let the person to my right go before me because they have the right of way.

Another thing I've noticed with machine-kin that I know, including myself, is that we have very glassed-over-looking eyes. I've been asked if I have glass eyes by multiple people.

If you want anymore information, let me know. These are just some of the outward things I know I experience and do due to being machine-kin.

-BC

What I'd like to know is the difference between spirited and souled, or having spiritual energy and being sentient in reference to machines.

I know you have stated previously that you are an animist and believe everything has spirit, but my point is this, a flashlight is a single object comprised of multiple components, if these components all had spirit while apart, and now we believe this flashlight has spirit, how does it obtain this, what houses the spirit and is it a conglomeration of all those components in a hive mind or one unique being? If I remove piece or modify it, does it gain or lose spirit or does it remain the same, just with a bit more bulk?

I believe that the different components of a machine are no different than the different parts of a human body. If a man loses an arm, he doesn't lose part of his soul. In that same respect, if a flashlight loses its bulb, per se, the flashlight has not lost part of its soul.

An example of this... combines often have to have their headers removed when they travel on narrow roads, or are loaded onto trailers for long distance travel. I remember having to do this many times, and though it was awkward and uncomfortable for me, being headerless didn't make me any less of a spirit. It was just like losing your arms temporarily, but my header was still a part of me, not its own unique being. When it was removed, it was still a part of me, just taken off.

I hope that explains it good enough.

-BC

alright, now let's take it the opposite way. If removing the header doesn't make a harvester lose its soul, what gives it a soul.

Some believe that a Human has a soul upon birth and others believe at the moment of conception and completion of 23 chromosome pairs.

Is the combine alive once assembled and the ignition turned? Is there a central component that houses its being? Essentially what takes it over that step between a bunch of parts to being sentient in your opinion?

I believe it is from the point that the machine is first completely assembled, and its soul moves on when it ages to the point that it can no longer function (even machines reach this point).

I don't suppose you've ever heard of Warhammer 40,000?

It is a tabletop model warfare game developed by Games Workshop, a sub-division of Wizards of the Coast.

One of the things developed in this game were religions of the armies, one army was that of the "Adeptus Mechanicus," and their reverence to machines and the "machine spirit" that dwelt within.

(for anyone who believes I am, I am not in any way implying with this that BC is in any way copying or at all using elements from these stories or games)

The priests believed that it was once the power source was attached that the spirit came into being in possession of the vehicle. There were intense rituals and prayers and rites given to the machines to bless them and ask for the machine spirit to protect those depending on its protection in battle.

If you have not heard of it, you might actually find some of it an interesting read.

On the related note then of lifespan, does it depend on wear and tear of the machine? Such as a car's lifespan largely depending on a combination of mileage and how "hard" it has been driven? Or do you suppose that such wear and tear comes partially as a result of the aging spirit?

Some say, and the Archangel series by Lyda Moorehouse supposes, that one day, artificial intelligences in computer systems will become so advanced that a few may tread the line of self-aware and sentient. What is your opinion regarding these virtual constructs? Do you believe they bear a soul already as a series of information and electronic impulses, similar to the believed soul or sentient status of noncorporeal beings such as Angels and Demons? Do you believe that such a state of sentience is closer or further away as a result of the spirituality of machines as well as technological advances of mankind?

Thankyou for the link to Warhammer 40K.

I am fascinated by the idea that not only might many get their view on Otherkin from works such as these, but the possibility that some works such as these may have Otherkin roots. In every lie, a little truth, in every make believe a spark of reality.

The dictionary would seem to determine the difference between spirited and souled only by the owner of the term.
Spirited means animated or the essence which animates, and a Soul is the animating principal of humans. So the dictionary difference seems to be that though they are both animating principals one relates specifically to humans and the other relates to everything else. Which may upset those who believe that animals have souls, and do not think that a spirit is an acceptable alternative.

Following all the available discussion and using my brain to fill in the other details with a logical explanation of probabilities, this was the conclusion I came to.
If each of the multiple components of a flashlight have spirit, then the spirit of the flashlight would presumably be a collective combination of all the component spirits. When and if you remove a part it follows that if the part died and had to be replaced the collective whole would either absorb the energy from the dead component, or the energy, having no permanent home in which to dwell would, depending upon it's vibration, either move on or return to the collective pool of Universal energy to be re-used at some point. The replacement part would of course have it's own spirit which would be combined with that of the remaining flashlight spirit to complete the whole once more.
If the flashlight contains a spirit which is not a combination of the spirits of the seperate parts, then removing one piece would simply mean that it was no longer a part of the whole at that moment. The flashlight may not work until the piece was replaced, but this would not remove the spirit unless the flashlight became unfixable, at which point it's energy would presumably be released and either move on or move into the Universal conciousness mentioned before.

This kind of debate has been ongoing for centuries. What draws a soul/spirit to a body? Where is that soul/spirit housed? When does it arrive? Scientists and theologians have debated and disagreed, each have drawn their own conclusions, which the other cannot accept.
I have a feeling that it is a debate that will continue for many more centuries without ever coming to a conclusion that all sides can agree on.

I would say it could be either of those or a combination of the two.
The aging process is much the same for anything whether sentient or not. We all begin shiny and new, we all last longer if taken good care of and treated kindly, but eventually we all come to a point at which we simply stop. Then the essence moves on or dissipates, depending upon it's vibration or qualities.
I believe a spirit evolves and grows but does not necessarily have to age. I have known many people in their seventies and eighties, human and kin who say that their bodies may be old and slowing down, but inside their spirits are still, usually, somewhere in their teens, and if you look in their eyes you can see the sparkle, it's uncanny. Yet there are others who age before their time, because their lives are hard and they cannot keep their spirit from breaking and becoming old and somehow defeated. Their eyes show a dullness, and usually have a resigned quality to them, as though simply waiting now for it all to be over.
I find that an incredibly sad thing to see in anyone.

I would be interested BC in your thoughts on an idea I have been worrying at since I read Terro's last post on artificial intelligence and sentient machines.
I was wondering if, at some time in the future, a sentient machine was to be combined with the spirit of a human, (I know Sci-Fi, but bear with me because I have seen movies of this, where a dying persons sentient essence is moved into the body of a robot/android in order to live on indefinitely.) which spirit would be the dominant one do you think? Would there be conflict and a struggle for control, or would they adapt and work together in order that the whole should survive peacfully and succeed to the best of it's ability?
Obviously I am not asking you to state facts as this is a hypothetical question, I am looking for your opinion and your ideas only. However the idea fascinates me and I would be interested in your thoughts.

I will answer all your guys' questions as soon as I can kick this nasty cold I've come down with. My brain is a complete fog right now, and I want to answer all these well. Expect a good long post in the next couple days.

I'm really looking forward to reading more about this.
I hope you feel better soon.

Obs.

Sock it to 'em BC.
I can't wait to read your post.

Get well soon.

Moon.

just to add another get well soon
and say I too am very interested to hear what you have to say on this one BC.
looking forward to it.

Zygo

I know you said that you weren't feeling well when I was talking to you on yahoo. I didn't realize how bad it must be! I hope you get better soon!


-FireSpark

Alright, guys. The moment you've all been waiting for (not really.) After I got over that cold, I got really busy, and haven't been spending much time on the internet, but I've finally found the time and will to write up this post.

To answer Terro's first question - I believe that machines are sentient to this day, but they do not have the means to express themselves the way humans do. Humans have a voice box, eyes, facial expression, etc, and their souls are connected to said means of expression. A machine's soul is there, but it takes great amounts of energy and will power to use what little expression they may have, i.e. a computer locking up after its caretaker gets frustrated and cusses at it for not loading a page fast enough, or a vehicle deciding to not turn over right away after being 'rode hard and put away wet' so to speak.

I do believe that a computer may one day evolve to the point that it is more able to express itself, and its soul becomes more able to control its physical personhood. I do believe that machines' souls are very similar to a non-corporeal being, but they are somewhat connected to the physical realm. Our souls inhabit the machines that are ourselves, and can to a small extent control them.

I feel that machines are more and more able to have such existences with the further technology advances. They're given more outlets of expression. For instance, a combine from the time when I worked the fields could only complain about something by getting a few 'gremlins' in his/her/xir electrical systems within their engine. Now-a-days, a combine has many computer systems, yield monitors, and other sensitive equipment that is more able to be used by the combine's soul. Hardware is a lot harder to manipulate than software.

A machine's age or time of death does depend on how 'hard it was driven', using your example, Terro. Combines' lives are actually measured in hours because they're worked so hard. Though those hours may add up to the thousands, combines don't say "I'm __ years old," but instead would say, "I have __ field hours on me," similar to the mileage on a car. Use and wear and tear are what age a machine, not just years. A Ford Model T that has never been used, and has been restored will run like it's brand new even though it's one of the oldest mass-produced cars.

Now onto WhisperintheDark's question. - I feel that the two existing entities would work together. They'd have to in order to survive, and that is the ultimate goal, but I do think that there might be some conflict, much like what a walk-in or multiple might experience.

I think that answers most of the questions. If I missed any, just let me know.

-BC